生物与医学2017ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
碳酸饮料导致大鼠进食量增加
Carbonated beverages induce increased food consumption in rats
入门 · 约 20 分钟读完前置知识：基础统计、动物实验设计、食欲调节基础
导读
这篇论文在大鼠中比较了自来水、无气普通汽水、碳酸普通汽水和碳酸无糖汽水，结论是碳酸饮料会导致食物摄入增加。研究借此探讨碳酸化本身是否会影响进食行为，但评论指出实验缺少“碳酸水 vs 普通水”的关键对照。
HN 关注点：研究设计是否足以证明碳酸化本身的作用、效应量有多大，以及这类“汽水与体重”结论与个人经验之间的冲突。
HN 评论精选
这几条评论里：质疑 2 补充 1 亲历 1
质疑指出实验缺少碳酸水对照组，并补充了气泡水与饥饿激素的参考信息。
研究里没有碳酸水？摘要列出的四组饮料是自来水、无气普通汽水、碳酸普通汽水和碳酸无糖汽水。我找到一条质量不高的参考资料，提到后续在人体志愿者中的测试发现，早餐喝气泡水的人 ghrelin 水平比喝静水的人高六倍。
mmastrac查看英文原文
Hrm, no carbonated water in the study [1]? > The study involved groups of male rats who were all fed a standard diet, but given one of four different drinks: > tap water > regular degassed (flat) soda > regular carbonated soda > diet carbonated soda EDIT: I found an offhand lower-quality reference [2] that suggests they did test carbonated water: > Subsequent tests on human volunteers found that those who drank sparkling water at breakfast had ghrelin levels six times higher than those who had still water. [1] The only details I could find were at http://www.westerntelegraph.co.uk/families/print/Can_fizzy_water_make_you_fat__.nhschoices.1/ [2] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/15/fizzy-water-could-cause-obesity-encouraging-eat/
质疑质疑研究设计，认为碳酸化可能只是通过掩盖甜味间接增加摄入。
没有“水 vs 碳酸水”的对照，我不太信。长期以来大家都知道，无气的汽水因为太甜而不好喝，动物会停止饮用；但碳酸化会掩盖甜味，导致消费量增加。所以我认为他们测到的很可能是次生效应。
bognition查看英文原文
I'm not buying it without a comparison of water to carbonated water. Its long been understood that soda w/o carbonation isn't palatable because its too sweet and animals stop consuming it. However, when carbonation is present it masks the sweetness which result in increased consumption. So I think they're probably measuring a secondary effect here.
补充强调必须报告效应量，否则结论的实际意义无法判断。
每当有研究说 X 导致 Y，就应该规定必须说明“导致多少”。这是非常重要的信息，摘要里就应该写出来。如果研究说喝葡萄柚汁会缩短一年寿命，我会戒掉；如果平均只缩短几小时，那就算研究完全准确也不值得在意。尤其在健康新闻里，我们容忍这种不精确，但其他领域不会这样。
mysterypie查看英文原文
Whenever there's a study that says X causes Y, there should be a rule that says you have to say by how much. That's a super-important piece of information. The abstract should state it! If a study says that drinking grapefruit juice shortens your lifespan by a year, then I'll cut out grapefruit juice. If it shortens it by a few hours on average, then even if the study is 100% accurate, it's too small to care about. Especially in news articles, we tolerate this imprecision with health-related findings but not in other areas. You don't see the news reporting that "avalanche kills some skiers". They'll at least tell you "avalanche kills 1 skier and second skier still missing" (unfortunate) or "avalanche kills as many as 350 skiers" (major tragedy).
亲历用亲历说明无糖汽水未必导致体重增加，并解释自己停喝是出于对未知风险的谨慎。
每次出现“体重增加与汽水有关”的研究，我都很困惑。我目前体形很好（力量指标都在 90% 以上，体脂低于 10%），但我以前每天喝很多无糖汽水，最严重时超过一升。对我来说它是咖啡因来源，能帮助集中注意力，也像食欲抑制剂，让我控制热量时不常被饥饿分心。我查过阿斯巴甜、甜菊糖等研究，没发现多少负面健康影响，也没注意到体重问题，最后停喝更多是因为一种不太理性的担心：要么信息被汽水公司隐瞒，要么这些化学物质有尚未被严格研究的坏影响。补充一句，我的代谢其实比平均慢，要比计算器建议少吃约 10% 才能保持现在的状态。
banashark查看英文原文
Whenever these `weight gain linked to soda` studies come up, I'm always confused. I've been told I'm in fantastic shape (>90% in all http://strengthlevel.com/ measurements and under 10% body fat) at the moment, and I used to consume a lot of diet soda every day. At it's worst, I consumed >1 liter a day. For me it was a caffeine source (since I dislike the taste of coffee and never saw the benefit in acquiring the taste) that helped me focus when I needed to get work done (I did a lot of tweaking around with amounts to make sure it was a marked difference and not just a placebo effect for me) and acted as an appetite suppressant so that I could manage my caloric intake without getting distracted by hunger frequently throughout the day. I constantly looked at aspartame/stevia/etc research to see what damage I would be doing to myself. While I couldn't really find much in the way of negative health effects (excluding weight gain, which I never noticed a problem with), I ultimately cut off my consumption because of a semi-irrational fear that either information was hidden by soda-corp et al, or that just because of how these chemicals work that there might be bad effects that just haven't been put under rigorous study yet. As a side note, my metabolism is actually slower than average and I need to eat on average ~10% calories less than any macronutrient calculator says to stay in the shape (low bf + strong) that I enjoy being in.
历次讨论
- 2017Hacker News 讨论帖209 分 · 123 评
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