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    1. 01

      全量扫一遍

      读取 Hacker News 自 2006 年以来的全部 446 万条链接投稿,找出指向 arXiv、期刊、会议、技术报告和学术 PDF 的帖子。

    2. 02

      只留论文本身

      由 AI 逐条判断,剔除介绍论文的新闻、博客和幻灯片,同一篇论文的多次投稿合并计算,并统计它在评论区被引用的次数。

    3. 03

      写导读、译评论

      讨论最热的 1,500 篇配上中文导读,并精选、翻译 HN 高赞评论。导读由 AI 生成,可能有误,请以原文为准。

    生物与医学2022ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

    不锈钢在烹饪过程中向食物释放镍和铬(2013)

    Stainless steel leaches nickel and chromium into foods during cooking (2013)

    进阶 · 约 30 分钟读完前置知识:基础化学、不锈钢与腐蚀基础、食品安全常识

    读论文 HN 讨论
    174HN 得分
    298条评论

    导读

    这篇 2013 年的研究考察了不锈钢炊具在烹饪过程中向食物中浸出镍和铬的情况。研究发现不锈钢确实会释放这两种金属,浸出量受炊具新旧、食物酸性和烹饪温度等因素影响,新炊具的浸出通常更明显。评论者补充认为,对多数人而言旧不锈钢炊具的浸出量远低于有害水平,但研究若未控制钝化处理等关键变量,结论的参考价值会打折扣。

    HN 关注点:日常烹饪器具的材料安全性,讨论焦点是不锈钢浸出的实际健康风险有多大,以及研究是否充分控制了钝化处理等关键变量。

    关键词 stainless steelnickel leachingcookwarefood safety

    HN 评论精选

    这几条评论里:质疑 1 补充 2

    补充几乎所有炊具都会浸出物质;按风险排序玻璃最好、纯钛次之、不锈钢再次;旧不锈钢炊具的镍浸出量远低于有害水平,陶瓷等反而可能更危险。

    应该记住,几乎所有接触食物的材料都会浸出一些物质,尤其是在烹饪时(高温下),而对金属来说,当食物含果汁或蔬菜汁(呈酸性)时更是如此。所以重要的是材料在这方面的等级排序。最佳的食物接触材料是玻璃,但玻璃虽适合储存,却不适合大多数烹饪方式。次佳是钛(商业纯钛,而非常见的 Ti-Al-V 合金),但钛炊具通常太贵。在这两种对多数人不可行的材料之后,才轮到不锈钢。是的,不锈钢会浸出少量镍和铬,但只在新炊具上较多,用过的炊具会大幅减少。即使对镍敏感人群(多为女性),旧不锈钢炊具浸出的镍量也远低于产生任何效果的水平。其他炊具材料包括陶瓷,反而可能浸出更危险的物质。

    adrian_b查看英文原文

    It should be kept in mind that almost any material used in contact with food will leach something, especially when it is used during cooking, i.e. at high temperatures, and, in the case of metals, when the food contains fruit juices or vegetable juices, which are acidic. So what matters is the hierarchy of the materials from this point of view, i.e. which are better and which are worse. The best material for food-contact is glass, but glass, while perfect for storage, is not suitable for most types of cooking (even if it is quite possible for someone to eat only food cooked in a microwave oven, in glass cookware). The next best material is titanium (commercially pure titanium, not the frequently encountered Ti-Al-V alloy). Titanium cookware exists, but it is normally too expensive, unless it is used in some activities where its low weight can justify the high price. After these 2 cookware materials, which unfortunately are not an acceptable choice for most people, comes the stainless steel. Yes, stainless steel will leach a little nickel and chromium. However this leaching will be large only for new cookware and it diminishes a lot for used cookware. Even in the case of people with nickel sensitivity, most of which are women, the quantities of nickel leached from used stainless steel cookware are far too low to have any effect. All the other materials that are used for cookware, including ceramics, can be sources of much more dangerous leaching than stainless steel (excluding glass & titanium). Ceramics and plastics are the worst (this includes any non-sticking coatings), because, unlike for metals and glasses, their chemical composition is usually kept secret by their manufactures, so you never know what they may leach.

    质疑不锈钢必须经过钝化才真正耐蚀,研究若未控制钝化处理则结论参考价值有限;多数炊具为 304 钢。

    有几个细节对解读这项研究可能很重要!1)所有不锈钢都需要「钝化」才真正耐蚀。如今的做法是把不锈钢放进热水浴,每加仑水加约一磅柠檬酸(我在家发现炊具有金属味时就会这样做)。未钝化的不锈钢会浸出和/或腐蚀!2)我认为多数炊具是 304 钢,不确定 316 有多常见。但除非控制钝化处理,否则研究仍然没什么信息量。

    carterschonwald查看英文原文

    So there’s several details and questions that I think might be important for interpreting this study! 1) all stainless steels need to be “passivated” in order to be properly stainless. These days that process involves putting the stainless steel in a hot water bath with like a pound of citric acid for every gallon of water used. (I actually do this at home with any cookware or steel bottles where I notice a metallic taste). Chips of stainless steel that aren’t passivated will leach and or corrode! 2) I think most cookware is 304 steel. I’m not sure how often it’s 316. But also unless you control for passivation it’s still pretty uninformative.

    补充化学描述基于成分而非功能(H2O 与 H2O2)容易误导;论文只涉及过敏者的急性效应,长期低剂量镍暴露缺乏研究,严格流行病学证据极难获得。

    相关讨论似乎充满空谈。我很想知道不锈钢、塑料、玻璃等安全性的真相,但总遇到两个问题:化学很难,生物学既难又慢。我们描述化学品通常基于成分而非功能:H2O 和 H2O2 看起来相似,但水和双氧水性质截然不同,一个可以常喝,另一个致命;某物含「阴离子氯」听起来不好,但那也可能是食盐。然后你拿这种外行极难解析的语言去预测它与人体的相互作用。而且你真正关心的不只是急性效应,还有长期累积效应。这篇文章讨论的是对过敏者的急性效应,但 10 年、20 年、30 年接触少量浸出镍又如何?化学品与生物系统的组合变化太多,为每种情况做严格流行病学研究几乎是不可能完成的任务。我希望有人告诉我我错了,但这类话题的讨论不仅徒劳,甚至危险,因为缺乏可信的因果结构时,我们可能说服自己相信任何事情。

    iandanforth查看英文原文

    Sibling discussions seem to contain a lot of hand-waving. I'd love to know the truth about the safety of stainless v plastic v glass etc but we seem to consistently run into two problems. 1. Chemistry is hard and 2. Biology is hard and slow. The way we describe chemicals is usually component based and not functional. H2O and H2O2 look similar but water and hydrogen peroxide have radically different properties. One is good to drink regularly, the other deadly. Reading that something contains anionic chlorine might be bad, but then again it might be table salt. For more complex chemicals this gets even more confusing. Then you take this extremely-hard-for-lay-people-to-parse language and try to use it to predict interactions with a human body. Moreover you really care about not just acute (strong, fast) effects but long term cumulative effects. The article is discussing acute effects for allergy sufferers, but what about 10 years of exposure to small amounts of leached nickle? 20? 30? The possible number of variations on chemicals, the biological systems they can interact with, and the time/effort required to perform rigorous epidemiological studies for each seems like a herculean task we are ill equipped to tackle. I'd love to be told I'm wrong, but it just seems like any discussion of these topics is not just fruitless but genuinely dangerous as it's possible, given the lack of a credible causative structure, to convince ourselves of anything.

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